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От
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Mirek Wawrzynski
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Владислав
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Дата
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31.12.2006 18:57:07
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Рубрики
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Межвоенные конфликты;
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Re: When you add 6281+2351 is... official losses
Hi
>А каковы даненые Кокса? Если он столь тщательно и подробно перерывал японские документы, в них должна быть разбивка по соединениям (дивизииЮ отдельные части, тыловые подразделения и т.д.) и видам потерь (раненые, пропавшие без вести, убитые, умершие от ран -- как в советских даных).
I do not have Cox's book and even do not read it, only from second hands have information about this works. This data about losses are for example given in Kolomiyetz's book (Chalching-Gol), where quite detailed are given figures for Japan losses. I think that the each army - no matter about nationality - has the smilar administrative attiude towards statistic data. Always depends from the commander
>Цифра 8632 -- из книги Мита Масахиро 1965 года. Я так понгимаю, что это есть данные официального армейского рапорта. Если цифра Кокса соответствует ей -- возникает сомнения в ее оригинальности и документальности
>То есть командование Квантунской армии имело основания занижать цифры потерь и скрывать подробную отчетность.
It is possible towward Tokio army command, for example to give as mentioned by you 2351 killed the rest were raproted as a missing in action, not exacte information about their fate. Kbantun Army Staff could (this is speculation) send such information about own losses in this about 2300. It looks not good but also it is not terrible higher about 9000.
>Вопрос о потерях всегда очпень сложный -- где гарантия, что исследователь, даже работающий в архивах, провел свою работу профессионально и добросоветсно и поднял ВСЕ документы.
Yes you are right, also in the archives and official document you can not find all answers on your question. All official documnts are works of staff's personel and the commanders make such raport as wish and want to see and read their superiors.
Quite good example of almost total erease and minimalise of G. Stern and Smuszkiewitz influence on Chalchin-Gol battle and the whole victory are momories written by Zukov. Which means almost 50 years of falsifiaction of the true about this battle and events by such important for whole Red Army monumental and "holy icona" - man.
>Однако отноисительно Халхин-Гола мы имеем как минимум одну, завизированную ОБЕИМИ сторонами цифру -- 6281 тел убитых во время последней операции (I think this is all buried by Japan on capatured Mongolian territory not only 20-31 VIII or up to 16 IX, but V-IX 39 - all fallen), переданые японцам после окончания боев. Трудно проверить, что за два предыдущих месяца войны, пока тела убитых беспрепятственно эвакуировались в Манчжурию, японцами было безвозвратно потеряно всего 2351 человек.
Look, it was very hot summer, a lot of flys, and the body shoudl be quite fas be buried, if not you will died form the nasty smell. Second, when you add following figures 6281 + 2351 (BTW, it is also probably, that Japan had the same as Soviet command duble counted both figures and some killed, buried on Soviet side were in the list of Japan as a KIA), you would get these total Japan losses + next several hundreds Japs died of wounds in the hospitals (possile -?). The figures given by Kolomyietz: 8632 killed plus 9087 wounded are official losses of Kvantun Army, when you add: 6281 + 2351 = 8632. So this is total losses.
Despite standard understimation and giving for public less then real figures Japan Army had to have exact data of fallen soldiers. Killed one soldiers it is also some kind of administrative works and the obligation to inform his familiy about his death (even missing). This is also important behaviour from Japan Army - respect to own citisens (you do not find this atitude in Soviet Russia, "gdzie ludi mnogo"). I do not see any strong reason among Japan staff officers to hide before themself own losses and aslo to hide the information about fallen sons of several 1000s Japan's mathers and fathers.
Regards
MirekW