От B~M
К Максимов
Дата 15.12.2021 01:43:43
Рубрики WWII; Армия;

Re: Так в...

>Конная артиллерия разгромила штаб 8 ID, где-то рядом взяли сколько-то пленных. Всё.
>Если ткнёте носом в польский источник, буду благодарен.
>ЗЫ. А Мурхауз - это такой британский Млечин только с гуглом и гуглопереводчиком. К тому же британский.
>Не удивлюсь, если эту информацию он взял "из Интернета" (тм).

Вот, для меня это тоже наиболее перспективный вариант поиска – найти самое раннее упоминание о пленении, потому что все три упомянутых в этой теме (кроме Мурхауза, ещё Роберт Форчик и Юрген Бек) вышли в 2019, причём ни у кого нет прямых ссылок на источник. Вряд ли между собой сговорились, конечно, но то, что поляки не форсят по всему Интернету "Мы первые взяли в плен немецкого генерала!", действительно странно. Знать такое и молчать – да их бы разорвало, как хомячков. Хотя я бы не сказал, что в истории 25-го полка вообще уделено внимание сентябрьской компании, называть три предложения «довольно подробным описанием краснобродского эпизода» – явная натяжка.
От Максимов
К B~M (15.12.2021 01:43:43)
Дата 15.12.2021 12:16:15

Re: Так в...


>Хотя я бы не сказал, что в истории 25-го полка вообще уделено внимание сентябрьской компании, называть три предложения «довольно подробным описанием краснобродского эпизода» – явная натяжка.

Вон там про Красноброд 16 страниц, правда с картинками.


[229K]


От Skvortsov
К Максимов (15.12.2021 12:16:15)
Дата 15.12.2021 17:45:27

Там же не один 25 уланский полк воевал

На axishistory писали:

In "Wir zogen gegen Polen", pages 55 - 62, we can find an interesting account of gen. Schobert (VII. AK).

He writes about hard situation of VII. and VIII. AK caused by the "rally" of cavalry grouping of gen. Anders near Krasnobrod. Of course gen. Schobert's account is not detailed enough to mention every single combat / skirmish.

Gen. Anders also describes this "rally" in his memories (W. Anders, "Bez ostatniego rozdzialu", London 1959).

Anders' subordinate - col. Zakrzewski (commander of Cav. Brig. "Zakrzewski") also describes these events, but from a different point of view than Anders (Anders praises his successes, Zakrzewski blames Anders for the failure of his own brigade, and he does this rightly because it was clearly Anders' fault, who was satisfied with only partial success).

..........................

"During the night from 22nd to 23rd of September the fragmented VII Corps sets to an attack along the line Zamosc - south-east Zamosc. The start of the assault - September 23rd, 8 o'clock in the morning. Around 6 o'clock the situation is unchanged. Artillery received an order to lay fire on the march roads of the Poles, because many Polish columns were reported. The assault begins. Strong enemy resistance south of Zamosc...
In the night the enemy attempted to advance to the south-west... through the gap between the VII and neighbouring VIII Corps... Regiments of the Brandenburgian Division (68 ID) stood in the region of Rudka, ready to retreat behind the Vistula. Then the order came: "Prevent the enemy breakthrough near Krasnobrod". The regiments returned. Two regiments marched straight on in eastern direction towards the gap, the third regiment to the north-east, to secure the wing of the fighting Swabian Division (27 ID)... Along the road Rudka-Jacnia a report comes from forward units: "To the east from the forester Kaczorki the company encountered the enemy. Enemy artillery fires on Jacnia. It asks for help." Second report: "The HQ of the neighbouring Corps (VIII AK) is hemmed and suffered huge losses." Along the road Jacnia - Krasnobrod and Jacnia - Rudka there are vehicles of the neighbouring division (8 Inf.Div.) - abandoned and partially plundered. Soldiers retreated... they fired all their ammo. In the southern part of the column remnants of the HQ formed a "hedgehog". Casualties among officers and riflemen are heavy. The situation is hopeless. Only calls of those coming with relief let to breathe. They greet the liberators from 68 Inf.Div. "It was just the matter of minutes" - said the officer of the general HQ and shakes hand of the newcomer. Counterattacks were being conducted further. Polish cavalry moved away, but before that numerous buildings had to be cleaned from it, Polish soldiers remained in hiding everywhere around... While along the southern front of the assault of the Brandenburgian, one regiment was attacking in eastern direction towards the road Zamosc - Tomaszow, the neighbouring regiment, fighting in the north, was no less strongly pushing towards Suchowola and Rachodoszcze. The Polish breakthrough attempt to the west had to be stopped. Again and again Polish units regroup and attack. Sometimes they even outnumber us. Polish cavalry attacks on horsebacks. But German counterattacks push it mercilessly to the east. The Brandenburgian Division accomplished its task: the gap had been closed... Around 4 o'clock the Poles once again attack the defensive line of this regiment of the Brandenburgian Division. Behind the second battalion of this regiment, which withdraws from Boza Wola, the Poles in pursuit capture Rachodoszcze and penetrate into locality Feliksowka. The Polish cavalry brigade managed to break through the gap between the two battalions of this regiment near Feliksowka. Suddenly Polish cavalry and infantry appears, attacking against this poorly defended position. The Poles tirelessly advance forward and blow the ring. They uncontrollably advance west, in order to later turn south, because the romanian border is their desired target."

Source:

"Wir zogen gegen Polen", pp. 51 and 55 - 62

.................

Out of 11 Polish cavalry brigades, 4 were 4-regimental (Kresowa, Mazowiecka, Nowogrodzka, Pomorska)
In fact only 3 out of 11 cavalry brigades received rifle battalions - Wolynska (3), Nowogrodzka (4), Mazowiecka (4).

.................

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=158406&p=1477138&hilit=krasnobrod#p1477138
От B~M
К Максимов (15.12.2021 12:16:15)
Дата 15.12.2021 14:44:19

А, блин, я ж вместо неё скачивал Odznaki kawalerii! Щас посмотрим (-)
От Skvortsov
К B~M (15.12.2021 01:43:43)
Дата 15.12.2021 08:31:30

Re: Так в...


>"Мы первые взяли в плен немецкого генерала!", действительно странно. Знать такое и молчать – да их бы разорвало, как хомячков.

На фоне боев с танковыми дивизиями в первых числах сентября этот эпизод выглядит как дурной анекдот. Захватили, вернули, получили свободный проход вплоть до советских войск...
От B~M
К Skvortsov (15.12.2021 08:31:30)
Дата 15.12.2021 14:47:00

Конечно. Но настоящих польских bohater'ов это никогда не останавливало (-)