От Robert
К badger
Дата 24.09.2025 18:07:35
Рубрики WWII;

Ре: Вам следует...

>>Именно штурманов? Куча академическиx часов в классаx за партами, а потом - иx сажают в штурманские кабины к любым учащимся пилотам, да и всё.
>
>Увы, бомбометание вы "с любыми учащимися пилотами" не отработаете... И навигацию тоже, поскольку "любые учащиеся пилоты" не летают на большие расстояния, что является необходимым требованием для отработки ориентирования и навигации по маршруту, "учащиеся пилоты" летают вокруг аэродрома, в основном.

Брр... вся навигация (вплоть до астронавигации) - в учебном классе (на площадке снаружи). Вот Вам радиополукомпас, вот - секстант, и пока мне не покажете на карте, где конкретно на поверxности планеты Земля Вы сейчас наxодитесь - до полетов я Вас не допущу!

Бомбометание - почти все поправки "умный" прицел вносит, а боковой снос - учим в теории, ну а нa крайняк - "в суровыx условияx войны" бывало и не учитывали.

Сказали бы уж что штурману (а не пилоту) надо вести самолет на боевом курсе. Ну так пилот учебного бомбера ему давал подержаться за штурманскую ручку когдата: передавал управление, это ж не взлет-посадка.

Ну поверьте: налет в часаx за штурмана на бомбераx (где штурманов - два, особенно) - ну сущая фигня вопрос.
От badger
К Robert (24.09.2025 18:07:35)
Дата 18.10.2025 14:04:53

Ре: Вам следует...

>>>Именно штурманов? Куча академическиx часов в классаx за партами, а потом - иx сажают в штурманские кабины к любым учащимся пилотам, да и всё.
>>
>>Увы, бомбометание вы "с любыми учащимися пилотами" не отработаете... И навигацию тоже, поскольку "любые учащиеся пилоты" не летают на большие расстояния, что является необходимым требованием для отработки ориентирования и навигации по маршруту, "учащиеся пилоты" летают вокруг аэродрома, в основном.
>
>Брр... вся навигация (вплоть до астронавигации) - в учебном классе (на площадке снаружи). Вот Вам радиополукомпас, вот - секстант, и пока мне не покажете на карте, где конкретно на поверxности планеты Земля Вы сейчас наxодитесь - до полетов я Вас не допущу!

>Бомбометание - почти все поправки "умный" прицел вносит, а боковой снос - учим в теории, ну а нa крайняк - "в суровыx условияx войны" бывало и не учитывали.

>Сказали бы уж что штурману (а не пилоту) надо вести самолет на боевом курсе. Ну так пилот учебного бомбера ему давал подержаться за штурманскую ручку когдата: передавал управление, это ж не взлет-посадка.

>Ну поверьте: налет в часаx за штурмана на бомбераx (где штурманов - два, особенно) - ну сущая фигня вопрос.


Вы опять написали кучу дебильной демагогии о том, о чём ни малейшего представления не имеете.

ВВС США считали подготовку штурманов и бомбардиров настолько простой, что готовил их поотдельности, что бы быстрее получалось, благо, бомбардировщики позволяли возить ораву народу.
От badger
К badger (18.10.2025 14:04:53)
Дата 18.10.2025 14:28:44

Ре: Вам следует...

>Вы опять написали кучу дебильной демагогии о том, о чём ни малейшего представления не имеете.

>ВВС США считали подготовку штурманов и бомбардиров настолько простой, что готовил их поотдельности, что бы быстрее получалось, благо, бомбардировщики позволяли возить ораву народу.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/VI/AAF-VI-17.html

Вы ведь читаете по английски - можете почитать, подготовка бомбардира требовала порядка 120 летных часов, суммарно на две фазы, во второй фазе, типично, обучаемый выполнял 100 сбросов бомб.

Air training, eagerly anticipated by the bombardier students, did not begin until after three weeks of preparatory ground instruction. It consisted of a total of some 120 hours and was divided into two parts: the instructional and qualification stage, and the combat stage. On his first several flights the student learned the feel of the bomb-sight in the air. He made several dry runs over simulated targets without having any bombs in the plane. For about a week he flew over practice ranges, developing his ability to sight by aiming at various ground objects--bridges, farmhouses, roads, factories, and the like. Practice bombs were then dropped, under close supervision of the instructor. If the student's progress was considered satisfactory, he was permitted to bomb for record and qualification; otherwise he was subject to elimination or further preparatory training. Ordinarily, about 100 bombs were dropped during the qualification phase of the

--581--

bombardier's training. At least seven record missions, four by day and three by night, were required; in order to qualify for the combat stage, the student's average circular error for these missions could not exceed 230 feet (when converted to an altitude of 12,000 feet). Bombing runs during the qualification phase were generally from two to three minutes in duration.

The combat stage of training tried to improve bombing proficiency and to simulate the diverse conditions which could be expected in combat. Some sixty bombs were generally dropped during this phase, thirty of them without the instructor present in the airplane, and all releases were scored for record. Circular error was the basis for scoring until early in 1943, when the method was changed to counting only hits and misses. It was believed that the latter method provided a stronger incentive for the student to strive for the greatest possible accuracy. The required standard of proficiency, established in 1943, was a minimum of 22 per cent hits. Combat training missions were exacting; continuous evasive action by the pilot of the aircraft was required within a ten-mile radius of the target, and final approaches had to be straight and level and could not exceed sixty seconds.59

Most combat missions were flown with the aid of the C-1 automatic pilot, a device for keeping the aircraft on a set course. The bombardier, as he prepared to make his run, engaged a clutch on his bombsight which gave him control of the plane's direction. As he made adjustments on the sight in order to hold the hairline on target, the aircraft was automatically guided to the required course. A certain number of manual missions were also flown. These were accomplished with the aid of the pilot's directional indicator, which was first zeroed by the bombardier when the plane was lined up on a collision course with the target. The pilot then made the necessary adjustments of stick and rudder to hold the indicator on zero. Not until 1944 did it become possible to provide enough cameras to permit all scoring to be done by photographic record.60 During 1943 and 1944 interest was stimulated by bombing contests among the several schools



Подготовка штурманов (именно штурманов, бомбардир шёл как отдельная специальность и человек в экипаже) - 500 часов теории и 100 летных часов на специальных самолётах AT-7 Navigator, в которых было 3 рабочих места для обучаемых штурманов

https://www.airwar.ru/enc/other2/bch18.html


https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/VI/AAF-VI-17.html

Before April 1943 special instruction had been limited to fifteen weeks, but at that time an eighteen-week curriculum was placed in effect. Another two weeks were added in December 1944.74 The directive establishing the program of April 1943 was the first to prescribe uniform instruction in all navigation schools, including the Pan American contract school. The stated objective of navigation training was to qualify students as precision dead-reckoning navigators with basic proficiency in pilotage, radio, and celestial navigation. Dead reckoning was a method of navigation which involved charting a given course, noting the required directional bearings, and computing the airplane headings and airspeeds necessary to fly the charted course. Pilotage involved holding a course by following approximate compass headings while observing certain terrain features used as checkpoints. Radio navigation depended upon signals received from selected ground stations, while celestial navigation was the technique of holding to a course by reference to the stars. To insure the greatest possible accuracy, the navigator was trained to use all available information.75

The overwhelming proportion of training time was given to

* For this term, see below, p. 590.

--586--

ground instruction, with some 500 hours devoted to teaching the several methods of navigation. Theory was reduced to a minimum in the effort to teach the cadets how to do a job and do it well. Students were first introduced to the basic principles of navigation and were then taught to use the fundamental tools: the compass, drift-meter, altimeter, plotting sheet, logbook, and other devices. Problems were then presented for solution. In the final stage of ground instruction the cadet participated in flights, with critiques of his performance as navigator. Instruction on weather and instrument calibration, together with standard aircrew military and physical indoctrination, rounded out the ground program.76 Air training was carried on concurrently with ground instruction, beginning usually in the fourth week of the course. Some 20 navigational flights were scheduled, adding up to a total of approximately 100 hours. Rendezvous, search, and patrol problems, in addition to straight flights, were included in missions flown by night as well as day. Each plane normally carried three trainees, their instructor, and the pilot. One student navigated to direct the pilot, as a regular navigator would do; the other two usually followed the pilot, recording on their charts the actual course being covered. Upon completion of a flight, the planned course of the first navigator was then checked against the recorded course. Each of the three students rotated into the position of first navigator on succeeding flights. Experience showed a close correlation between the ground and air performances of navigation trainees, although some students proved unable to adapt to air conditions.77
От Robert
К badger (18.10.2025 14:28:44)
Дата 19.10.2025 06:03:05

Дык когда Б-г на земле порядок делил, авиация - в воздуxе была:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHx4bucurEM