От Манлихер
К All
Дата 17.02.2011 15:41:50
Рубрики ВВС; Локальные конфликты;

? по сбитию нашего Ил-12 Парром 27.07.1953

Моё почтение

А где можно предметно почитать про американскую версию?

Хотелось бы все же понять, насколько обоснованными были их пояснения. И на соновании чего они приписывают Парру эту "победу"?

И почему, кстати, мы этот вопрос после американского отказа в возмещении перестали озвучивать. Неужто забоялись встречного иска насчет сбитого Б-50?

В сражениях за истину последняя участия не принимает
От Сергей Зыков
К Манлихер (17.02.2011 15:41:50)
Дата 17.02.2011 19:21:39

Re: ? по...

>Моё почтение

>А где можно предметно почитать про американскую версию?

дык у американцев. гугель в помощь

>Хотелось бы все же понять, насколько обоснованными были их пояснения. И на соновании чего они приписывают Парру эту "победу"?

>И почему, кстати, мы этот вопрос после американского отказа в возмещении перестали озвучивать. Неужто забоялись встречного иска насчет сбитого Б-50?

забиваете в гуглбуксе: Ralph S. Parr и смотрите
Даже в тех случаях где вместо страниц кажет "лычки" можно при некоторой сноровке собрать цельный текст и почти цельную страницу скана (гуглбукс как правило одну "лычку" на страницу зажимает)

Last seen alive: the search for missing POWs from the Korean War
Laurence Jolidon - 1995 - 346 pages - Snippet view

They charged that four US fighters were involved in the incident. The coordinates that the Russians gave for the incident — and the map that appeared in Pravda with a story about the incident — placed it well within Manchurian territory. Throughout the Korean War, US pilots had been forbidden to fly into Manchuria on combat missions, although it was well-known that many many did on the basis of what was known as "hot pursuit" of the Soviet planes that were all based north of the Yalu. American reconnaissance planes, which were under separate orders to obtain intelligence, were understood to have entered Chinese airspace frequently as well.
The US was adamant, however, — based on the account of the incident by the American pilot who shot down the transport — that the shootdown had taken place south of the river, over North Korean territory. The F-86 pilot who downed the Russian plane — Capt. Ralph S. Parr, Jr. — had flown more than 1 60 combat missions during the Korean War, and had nine MIG " kills" to his credit — one short of qualification as a double "ace.".
His mission the day of the incident was to escort a Navy Banshee photo reconnaissance flight whose targets were several airfields on the North Korean-Manchurian border. Parr admitted shooting down the transport — he said it bore a red star marking similar to those on other "hostile" planes he had shot down throughout the war. But only one other F-86 — his wingman — had witnessed the shootdown. And the Soviets presented photos of a crashed plane, claiming it was the IL-12 that the US had shot down. The photos showed a heap of metal on the ground in Manchuria.
One theory, advanced by Samuel Klaus, a State Department official who investigated a number of so-called Cold War shootdown incidents in preparation for having cases heard before the International Court of Justice at the Hague, held that the Soviets had actually lost another IL- 1 2 transport in Manchuria at an earlier date and, when Parr shot down another, even though it was over North Korea, chose to charge him with shooting down the one in Manchuria.3 The Soviets didn't give the United States long to weigh the pros and cons of the IL-12 shootdown, however. ...


Air force magazine: Volume 36
Air Force Association, United States. Army. Air Corps - 1953 - Snippet view
She modeled the Airpower Gown designed for her by Oleg Cassini of New York to symbolize the modern air age. Capt. Ralph S. Parr, F-86 pilot and. jet ace of the 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wins in Korea who destroyed the final enemy aircraft of the Korean war. On hi> last mission a few hours before the truce. Parr shot down an IL-12 twin- engine transport deep in North Korea. The Reds later protested the transport had been over neutral territory. ...

American foreign policy, current documents
1956 - Snippet view

The United States Government must further, after examining the photographs of the alleged wreckage of the IL-12 aircraft submitted by the Soviet Government, express serious doubt that the wreckage photographed could be that of any aircraft which had been shot down or had crashed, and was photographed, at the place, the time and in the circumstances charged in the Soviet note.
The United States Government is also not unmindful that the photographs and the report of the Soviet Government indicate bullet holes of varying dimensions in the aircraft parts and in the bodies of the passengers and crew. Examination of the photographs submitted compels the conclusion that bullet holes shown were not caused by any armament carried by F-86 aircraft or by Captain Parr. Dimensions of bullet holes given in the Commission's report are also not consistent with the known effect of that armament. It must be concluded on the basis of existing data that these bullet holes were not caused by persons acting under the authority of the United States or the Unified Command of the United Nations forces in Korea.
5. The United States Government observes also that the Soviet note and report make no mention of investigation in North Korea nor does it make any reference, although questions on the subject were clearly asked in the United States Government's note of January 26, 1964, to other IL-12 type aircraft in North Korea on July 27, 1953 not operated by the Soviet Government. As it has stated above, the United States Government must presume that a free and truthful inquiry in these regards would produce evidence unfavorable to the Soviet Government's claim.
6. In view of the foregoing it is not necessary for the United States Government to point out in detail that the Soviet note of December 30, 1954 fails to satisfy other standards of international law for diplomatic claims, such as those respecting damages.
...........
crashed near Antung in Manchuria. This testimony is corroborated by other evidence in the possession of the United States Government. If, therefore, the destroyed Soviet IL-12 transport and bodies of passengers and crew were actually viewed at Mao-erh-shan, the United States Government is inclined to believe that they had been transported there either from a position much closer to Vladivostok, such as has been mentioned above, or from the position in North Korea mentioned in the United States Government's findings.
The United States Government must therefore conclude that it is most likely that if any Soviet airplane was destroyed in the area claimed by the Soviet Government the destruction was not the result of any action by aircraft of the United States or of the Unified Command of the United Nations forces in Korea; that such a destruction as the Soviet Government claims was completely unrelated to the shooting by Captain Ralph S. Parr,
................
Soviet Government than by the United States Government. On the other hand, if the IL-12 transport was actually destroyed by Unified Command aircraft, the evidence adduced by the Soviet Government does not lead to the conclusion that the incident took place in Manchuria rather than in North Korea.

II

Based on its own investigation, the United States Government is compelled to adhere to the conclusion stated in its note of January 26, 1954 that "the only incident in which any American aircraft destroyed an IL-12 on July 27, 1953 occurred entirely in North Korea during a period of hostilities in which North Korea was a belligerent zone and the aircraft destroyed was hostile."
The United States Government, as a result of its own investigation, has found the following facts to be true and is prepared to prove them by legal evidence in an appropriate international forum : A. As to the circumstances of the destruction of an IL-12 type airplane :
1. In the morning of July 27, 1953 the competent authorities of the Unified Command of the United Nations forces in Korea dispatched a mission consisting of one reconnaissance aircraft and eight escort F-86- type aircraft for the purpose of carrying out reconnaissance operations related to the conduct of the United Nations military action in North Korea. The reconnaissance operations were to be performed entirely within North Korea, and south of the Yalu River, and all the persons in the mission were so instructed. They were, furthermore, specifically instructed under no circumstances to cross the Yalu River into any area of Manchuria. The aircraft involved in the mission took off at approximately 11 : 30 am local time, and at all times entirely within the air space of North Korea proceeded to various points south of the Yalu River, as their pilots had been instructed, flying at altitudes of between, approximately, 25,Q00 and 38000 feet.
2. It was while engaged in the performance of these duties, ordered by the Unified Command, that pilots in the reconnaissance escort mission, at approximately 12 : 23 in the afternoon local time, noticed an aircraft at a position of approximately 41 degrees 38 minutes North latitude, 126 degrees 37 minutes East longitude, flying at approximately 7000 feet altitude, proceeding from west to east on a course within and across North Korea . Two of the F-86 aircraft in the mission detached themselves for the purpose of investigating the low-flying aircraft; these two F-86 aircraft were piloted by two United States Air Force pilots duly assigned to the Unified Command and comprised an element of which the leader was Captain Ralph S . Parr, Jr., stationed in Korea. On descending to approximately the altitude of the sighted aircraft Captain Parr and his companion pilot found that the aircraft was proceeding from west to east on a heading of approximately 90 degrees to 100 degrees at an altitude of approximately 6000 feet
От Манлихер
К Сергей Зыков (17.02.2011 19:21:39)
Дата 17.02.2011 20:49:19

Спасибо. Да, круто. Весьма напоминает позицию уркаинского Минобороны по (+)

Моё почтение

...Ту-154 - типа, а пофиг, что в обломках и телах пассажиров пули, вы сначала докажите, что это наши пули. А раз Парр сказал, что сбил противника над Сев.Кореей, значит так оно и есть.

И, как я понял, "победу" ему засчитали, поскольку так и не признали, что он сбил наш Ил.

В сражениях за истину последняя участия не принимает
От Сергей Зыков
К Сергей Зыков (17.02.2011 19:21:39)
Дата 17.02.2011 19:41:40

Re: ? по...

О, там еще и мемурии Махорина есть. Сбили его Сейбр и самого в плен взяли.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9bVBAAAAIAAJ&q=

Honest John ...: autobiography ...
Walker M. Mahurin
Putnam, 1962 - History - 313 pages