От Mirek Wawrzynski
К Андрей Диков
Дата 06.08.2004 14:26:19
Рубрики Люди и авиация; Сайт `airforce.ru`;

Re: It makes no sensce ! To weak to be true?

>День добрый!

>На них была возложена вина за неудачи и неподготовленность ВВС в начальный период войны. А в то время практиковался жестокий метод отставки и наказания - расстрелом.


>С уважением, Андрей

I could not agree with this, Rychagow was dimmised on 12 IV 41 by Timoszenko due to hight rate of avaryjnost i katastrofy 600-900 per year - each day 2-3 crashed planes!

This was the main reason of his dismisal. He was killed toghter with his wife mjr Niestierenko (do you belive that his wife was also responsible for not prepring the VVS RKKA to the war? of coure she could not giving his hausbend the kisses, and he was so wron - but this is not funy and not true). It is imposible
Rychagow was arrested on 24 VI 1941.

Smuszkiwicz was arested on 12 or 14 VI 41 and it was personal permisson of his superrior gen G. Zukow. Since 1939 to arrested subordinate it was needed the permission of the superior. The procedure introcuced by Beria in 1939 after pruges 1937-38.
Loktionow (killed in Barbysz in X 1941) was dimmised in 1939, he too was also responsible for not prepering the VVS to war, this makseno sense.

Zygariew who was chif of VVS RKA since 12 IV 41 got nothing for not "alarming" the aviation on 22 VI 41, he lived long after the war.

G. Stern comander of PWO - killed by NKWD, for what exactly.

kombrig Arzenuchin - comander of Acanemy of VVS as above

gen Filin chef of NII VVS in 1942. for what, as above
Pumpur commander aviation in Moscow MD.
How these men were responsible for the destruction or not preparations of VVS RKKA to war. Of coure, we can say they were guilty, but not exactly for preparation or not VVS RKKA, but for what.

Most of VVS comanders were killed on 28 X 1941 after Wyazma tragedy.
Gen Pawław the comander of Western Fron + his staff being killed in the begining of July 1941 exactly for the catastrofe on the front - and this is exactly this case of victims high military losses of June 1941, but the VVS RKKA chefs in October?

PS
If your opinion could be true, what about Jewgieniy Ptuchin (Kiew SMD) who was killed in 1942 (If I am right February), Filin form NII VVS also in on the begining 1942.
This makes no sense in this pruges.
If the were guilty of catasftorfe of June 1941 they shuold be killed with the Pawłow. The martial courts had not time for philosopy - Stalin said guilty and this was enough, they were killed.

Ptychin was relived form chif of KSMD on 20 VI 41, Novikow had packed his luggages on 21 VI 41 to drive to Kiev.

If you were right Ptuchin should be killed in X 41 not in 1942 togheter to Pumpur form X 1941 who was arrested 23 or 24 VI 41. But Moscow MD is rather far away form the German-Soviet border and this time I do not hear about any terrible distractions on Moscow zone arifields done by Luftwaffe!
Regards,

MW

To Igor and PTL
you are nice guys but could you be more on the point and not far, far away of it.
If you want to add something new to it do it, if not and only make empty foam, save your time-life from such a tricks.
От Андрей Диков
К Mirek Wawrzynski (06.08.2004 14:26:19)
Дата 06.08.2004 15:31:03

Re: It makes...

День добрый!

>I could not agree with this, Rychagow was dimmised on 12 IV 41 by Timoszenko due to hight rate of avaryjnost i katastrofy 600-900 per year - each day 2-3 crashed planes!

Какая разница когда именно и за что именно? По мнению властей они были виновны. И наказаны так, как это было принято.

В чем вопрос-то?


>This was the main reason of his dismisal. He was killed toghter with his wife mjr Niestierenko (do you belive that his wife was also responsible for not prepring the VVS RKKA to the war? of coure she could not giving his hausbend the kisses, and he was so wron - but this is not funy and not true).

Причем тут это и какая разница во что я верю? Тогдашний порядок предполагал зачастую наказание как непосредственного обвиняемого, так и его семьи. Это новость?


>Zygariew who was chif of VVS RKA since 12 IV 41 got nothing for not "alarming" the aviation on 22 VI 41, he lived long after the war.

Судебная система того времени была мягко говоря несовершенна и это тоже не новость.


>Most of VVS comanders were killed on 28 X 1941 after Wyazma tragedy.
>Gen Pawław the comander of Western Fron + his staff being killed in the begining of July 1941 exactly for the catastrofe on the front - and this is exactly this case of victims high military losses of June 1941, but the VVS RKKA chefs in October?

Как сочли необходимым, так и расстреляли. Рокоссовского не растреляли ни через неделю после ареста, ни через полгода. И что?

>If the were guilty of catasftorfe of June 1941 they shuold be killed with the Pawłow. The martial courts had not time for philosopy - Stalin said guilty and this was enough, they were killed.

По-разному бывало.

>If you were right Ptuchin should be killed in X 41 not in 1942 togheter to Pumpur form X 1941 who was arrested 23 or 24 VI 41.

Что значит должны были быть? Не на фабрике чай.

Павлова - под горячую руку. С Рычаговым думали, что делать, собирали материал, допрашивали. Когда решили осудить, расстреляли.

Я не понимаю поинта (point) обсуждения.



С уважением, Андрей
От Mirek Wawrzynski
К Андрей Диков (06.08.2004 15:31:03)
Дата 06.08.2004 20:58:02

Re: Not so fast and so "hop",+ Igor U

>День добрый!

>>I could not agree with this, Rychagow was dimmised on 12 IV 41 by Timoszenko due to hight rate of avaryjnost i katastrofy 600-900 per year - each day 2-3 crashed planes!
>
>Какая разница когда именно и за что именно? По мнению властей они были виновны but what exactly). И наказаны так, как это было принято (for what?).

This is quite big difference to be arrested for spying or being arrested for "destruction" of power VVS.
If there were not differences what was the point if you are "kulak or burzuj" or you are simple "peasant". Mayb now it is no difference but during stalin all were counted, all, even small things, could be a proof agaist you.

Stalin's times were big difference if you were "torckis oriented", or not, for such a "stupid" claims you might lost your head as many did.

>В чем вопрос-то?
I do not know yet but trining to put toghether some puzzles in this case of pruges, looking for new data.

>>This was the main reason of his dismisal. He was killed toghter with his wife mjr Niestierenko (do you belive that his wife was also responsible for not prepring the VVS RKKA to the war? of coure she could not giving his hausbend the kisses, and he was so wron - but this is not funy and not true).
>
>Причем тут это и какая разница во что я верю? Тогдашний порядок предполагал зачастую наказание как непосредственного обвиняемого, так и его семьи. Это новость?

If you have right what about Molotow's wife, she was guilty and was several years in Gulag, but Molotow did not.
According you this means extermiantion all family member of VVS commnders and aslo in 1937-38 time too. I do not hear much abot such a extermination of wifes of killed commanders in 1937-41.


>>Zygariew who was chif of VVS RKA since 12 IV 41 got nothing for not "alarming" the aviation on 22 VI 41, he lived long after the war.
>
>Судебная система того времени была мягко говоря несовершенна и это тоже не новость.
Zygariew is gut and ychagov, Smuszkieish, Loktionow, ect. eto "sabaki" to be killed, with full responsible for destructions of 22 VI 41.
This is not, es gehts nicht!

>>Most of VVS comanders were killed on 28 X 1941 after Wyazma tragedy.
>>Gen Pawław the comander of Western Fron + his staff being killed in the begining of July 1941 exactly for the catastrofe on the front - and this is exactly this case of victims high military losses of June 1941, but the VVS RKKA chefs in October?
>
>Как сочли необходимым, так и расстреляли. Рокоссовского не растреляли ни через неделю после ареста, ни через полгода. И что?

Rokkossowski was arested before 1939, he never say that he was a traitor, spy, if you did it he never leaved the prison. Despiet he had heavy investigation Including loosing many teeths), and on VI was again the commander of 9. Mechanized Coprs in KOSO.

>>If the were guilty of catostrofa of June 1941 they shuold be killed with the Pawłow. The martial courts had not time for philosopy - Stalin said guilty and this was enough, they were killed.

>По-разному бывало.

Not exactly, Pavlov got his sentence because according Stalin was fully guilty of collapsed of Western Front (totaly bardak on the front) and all comanders who were killed with him got the same. Some days of investigation and were after "herbata".

In VVS commanders case you have long investigation, they were are4sted since May, June (before 22) and also during the war. Some of them were killed in October 1941 and others even in 1942.
In my opinion it was poitical investigation not any "catastrophe" investigation and responsibility for it.

>>If you were right Ptuchin should be killed in X 41 not in 1942 togheter to Pumpur form X 1941 who was arrested 23 or 24 VI 41.
>
>Что значит должны были быть? Не на фабрике чай.


>Павлова - под горячую руку. С Рычаговым думали, что делать, собирали материал, допрашивали. Когда решили осудить, расстреляли.

Where was then Pawlow, where was then Rychagow, may you thing about Kopiec, the last one was in fact under Pavlow but not commanded Rychagow.
Where is Minsk and where is Moscow?
Rychagow was in Academy, any connection with Pawlow after IV 1941.


>Я не понимаю поинта (point) обсуждения.

Tak bywa.
Me too not all undrestand, so I am trying to explain
For me something do not fit in killing so many high VVS RKKA commanders and I wonder why, I do not belive it the simple explanation, bo byli winowaty -czego.
Of course they do not got bulles for drinking czaj i wodka and leading VVS to the destruction, if were so what about Budionny, Woroshylow, Timoszenko, Sztemienko, Zukow
they have no responsibility for these defets (same wojskowe swiete anioly) and other simple winowaty.

To tyle sobie pogadali
Regards
MW

>С уважением, Андрей

To Igor U
"I regret I asked that question. Once again you proved you're a warlike person as always. That's why I will keep silent."

Dear Igor could you kindly tell me who did you tell that Mirek is a pigeon or holly angel. I do not think about me that way. Yes, you are absolutly right maybe others are but me not? I say again I do not hear about me that me is true pigeon or true holy angel!
Meny others things I have heard but not above.
:-).

Regards
Mir W
100% non-angel!
and non-iron too, :-)
От Игорь Уткин
К Mirek Wawrzynski (06.08.2004 14:26:19)
Дата 06.08.2004 14:38:04

Re: It makes...

I regret I asked that question. Once again you proved you're a warlike person as always. That's why I will keep silent.