От MiB
К Д.Срибный
Дата 12.09.2003 21:29:46
Рубрики Авиатехника; Моделизм; 1936-1945 гг.;

О, майн гот! Желтый кант у звезды - ОПЯТЬ!!!??? (-)
От Milos
К MiB (12.09.2003 21:29:46)
Дата 13.09.2003 07:58:28

Re: О, майн...

Ha verno ich bylo. U menya foto !!
V 31. IAP nap !!!

Milosh
От MiB
К Milos (13.09.2003 07:58:28)
Дата 13.09.2003 10:18:39

Может, и было :)

>Ha verno ich bylo. U menya foto !!
>V 31. IAP nap !!!

Но вот на обложку вынесли зря. Хотя, мо-быть, я придираюся?
В целом очень приятное впечатление от книги (насколько можно судить по нескольким страничкам на сайте).
Единственное пока (ИМХО) существенное упущение по содержанию - нет истребителей ленд-лиза - не получается целостной картины. А ведь у нас "Харрикейны" и Р-40 перекрашивали. Да и про "кобры" (были ведь белые!) со "спитами" не помешало бы - может, не столь подробно, как про советские, но хотя бы несколько страничек и картинков...

Но нет в жизни совершенствия :)))

Обыдно тока, что эта хорошая весчь вышла на Западе, а не у нас :(((
От Ilya~Buffalo
К MiB (13.09.2003 10:18:39)
Дата 13.09.2003 19:25:19

Re: Может, и...

Миша, привет!
По Ленд-Лизу планируется отдельная книга, как впрочем по Ил-2 и бомбовцам.
Заглядывай почаще в почтовый ящик:)
А обложка к автору имеет мало отношения. Там довольно много ошибок в книге, о которых Эрик знал, но издатель просто проигнорировал его требования о исправлении:(
Ны да Бог с ними:)
Счастливо, Илья
От С.Алексеев
К Ilya~Buffalo (13.09.2003 19:25:19)
Дата 13.09.2003 20:07:38

Re: Может, и...

>А обложка к автору имеет мало отношения. Там довольно много ошибок в книге, о которых Эрик знал, но издатель просто проигнорировал его требования о исправлении:(

Ну прям как наши редакторы...
Надеюсь, хоть отсебятины редакторской в книге нет
От Ilya~Buffalo
К С.Алексеев (13.09.2003 20:07:38)
Дата 13.09.2003 21:38:13

Re: Может, и...

>Ну прям как наши редакторы...
>Надеюсь, хоть отсебятины редакторской в книге нет
Приветствую!
Откровенной отсебятины нет, но есть дурацкие ошибки в произношении наших терминов, например, множественное от "завод" они написали как "завода", хотя и я проверял рукопись и другие люди тоже. А издатель нанял какую-то то-ли студентку, то-ли выпускницу университета по специальности "Русский язык". Она им там такое нагородила, даже словарь показала, что "завода" правильно:):). Ну, ясное дело, забыли некоторые очень важные фотографии, много чего (из графики) не включили из-за экономии места. Но вроде планируется второе издание, там многие ляпы и недоработки должны снять.
Счастливо и с уважением,
Илья
От Д.Срибный
К MiB (12.09.2003 21:29:46)
Дата 12.09.2003 23:00:39

Зачем же столько трагизма? :-)

Приветствую!

Докладываю. Пролистав всю книгу желтых звезд не обнаружил. Единственно, в приложении, там где описываются опознавательные знаки, видим:
"Звезда с желтой окантовкой никогда не была общепринятой и похоже, что она была декоративным заменителем белой окантовки. Однако, такая маркировка встречалась с 1942 по 1945".

С уважением, Дмитрий
От Franek Grabowski
К Д.Срибный (12.09.2003 23:00:39)
Дата 13.09.2003 16:12:15

Ре: Зачем же...

Привет
Когда я не увижу цветной фотки или обломка самолёта, я не поверю. Я думаю што ето может быть аллуминовый лак (так ето писать? куда я дал мой словарь!).
Здець што сообшчил друг из Финландии.
С ув.
Франек
RUSSIAN WW2 SILVER & OTHER COLOURS
Taken from rec.models.scale newsgroup - author Kari Lumppio

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Introduction
I strongly advise that you pick up DejaNews and first read my posting (Re: Russian WW2 colors- aircraft (longish), 1998/02/14, klumppio@cc.hut.fi). Reading
that post you can understand better what I am talking about here.

For reasons unknown to me the VVSpage seems to ignore any use of silver paint in VVS (WWII). Therefore I have collected some facts together, presented below.
I have also added comments for the other VVS colors.

Use of silver in VVS as I know it

Exteriors
In Finland exists several qenuine, unrestored WWII russian a/c pieces where *silver* (aluminum) has been used for exterior painting. Pieces can be found at least
from the following types: R-5, I-15Bis(I-152), I-153 and SB (2 - refers to number of motors. In the following correct type definition SB is used). Some details
follow.

The I-152 is s/n 5275. Plane has green oversides, metal inspection hatches were painted black at least on upper wing. Underside all fabric and wooden (plywood)
areas were painted with silver laquer and metal parts with light grey! The plane made emergency landing on iced lake on Finnish side early December 1939 during
so called Winter War. Ice was not strong enough and the plane fell through after landing. The wreck was retrieved in 1972. Source: Valtonen 93 p. 247-248.

A Russian I-153 rudder exhibited at Tikkakoski museum has field application of black/green over (factory) silver.

At Vesivehmaa museum are parts from at least two different SBs: one rear fuselage, four elevators, rudders, radiators etc. All these have (remains of) silver paint on
exterior surface. Both SBs and earlier DB-3s (and DB-3f/Il-4s) were *painted* with *silver* at factory. If you don't want to hear that from a Finn you can also
read it from a Russian researcher (Averin 94, p. 24). According the article silver was also used for I-153 undersides even after intoduction of underside blue
AE-14 for MiGs (after the end of 1940).

Valtonen mentions also a I-16 with silver underside (Valtonen 93, p. 248). Cowling was painted black, uppersurfaces were dark green. The s/n was 5210517. I
do not know if pieces of this plane have been retrieved to museum.

Markings
There is a war-time handbook for chemical industry making paints for VVS. It contains also color samples for the paints. I wish I could give you more details, but
the book *does* very much *exist*. There is one piece of it in Finland and I'm eagerly waiting my turn to examine it thoroughly. The book was recently aquired
from Russia by certain Mr Geust. This book gives only three colors for exterior markings for VVS: white, red
and aluminium (silver).

IMO this excludes the possibility that yellow border stars could have been "standard". If yellow borders existed they must have been exceptions. I have seen *no
hard evidence* (ie. primary source) for yellow borders. I would like to see VVSpage editors provide this in their homepage. Interpretation of black and white
photos is a weak evidence.

(This doesn't mean that yellow wasn't used for other markings. I've seen yellow numbers on a U-2 (Po-2) at Tikkakoski museum and on a SB rudder at
Vesivehmaa museum. Valtonen (93) also gives one P-40, which I mentioned also in my earlier post (it was then the only one I remembered without checking my
references). The U-2 has also yellow stripes - the plane is war booty form Winter War 1939-1940. The yellow Eastern Front ID yellow markings were introduced
for Axis and Finnish a/c's in 1941).

Silver borders for VVS stars
Silver borders for VVS stars is a stonehard fact. You can even access the evidence in Internet. Photos of two very different cases of P-39 Russian Airacobras with
such stars can be found at the following two sites:

1.
(or via the homepageTikkakoski museum homepage, choose "Current restoration project & Team Airacobra" url given
below)
This fuselage is from "Silver 26" a P-39Q-15-BE from 191 IAP (serial no 44-2664) which force-landed on Finnish side summer 1944. It remains still in Finland at
Tikkakoski museum. The P-39 wing at Tikkakoski is from different a/c (either "20" or "25") but also these stars have silver borders like the ones on the fuselage.
There was altogether three captured Russian P-39s in Finland. "Silver 26" companions "Silver 20" and "Silver 25" can be seen in a photo in Squadron Signal in
Action no 43 (1980), p. 28. Their spinners still remain at Tikkakoski museum. All three are painted silver. No P-39 was ever used or even planned to be used in
FinnAF, so their camo and markings remained untouched. Unfortunately parts for only one whole a/c is left nowadays.

2.
(or via Lapland crash site main menu, url given below) Sergei Tropa's "Silver? 42" (from 2./255 MIAP (base Vajenka I) a
P-39Q-5 serial no 42-20442. Shot down over Norwegian Lapland by Luftwaffe fighters May 26th 1944. In the picture wing lies still there. Source for a/c identity
Valtonen 93, p. 228.

So it's altogether three different Russian P-39's with silver-bordered stars. Drawing conclusions from only one example could be dangerous.

Silver was also used for stencilling. The piece of starboard side of LaGG-3 fuselage at Vesivehmaa museum has following small text written with silver on exterior:
"zarjadka kislorodnogo ballona P=150 Atm" - oxygen bottle refilling P=150 Atm.

Silver as interior color
Silver was used also as interior finish over areas of wooden structure. This is the case for both the MiG-3 (outer wings) and the LaGG-3 (fuselage) at Vesivehmaa
museum.

Interior colors I know of (other than the VVSpage gives us): One of the SB elevators at Vesivehmaa museum has damage hole so that the interiors of it can be
examined. While the whole elevator is painted externally with silver inside it has been painted with color much like RLM02. This color is as pristine as one can be.
There is no perfect FS match, 26307 is close in hue, but too light. This paint most probably is not the same "Medium Blue-Green/ Blue-Green Primer/Metal Use
Primer" the VVSpage wants us to use, the color is nowhere near the *light blue* FS(2)5622. I would like to know what is the VVSpage's sample if there is one?

The wooden LaGG-3 fuselage part at Vesivehmaa museum uses black (primer?) under the silver paint on interior surfaces! Outside plywood is covered with fabric.
Under the fabric surface is of yellow(ish) color which might be primer or fabric dope.

Pete Chalmers has mentioned already in this thread the MiG-3 cockpit side panel which interior was painted blue-green FS 25352. I have not seen this panel, but I
known the person who has done the comparison. I trust him 100% in this.

The MiG-3 at Vesivehmaa museum uses green FS34130 also for interiors (more below).

Underside blue
In Finland at least 6 genuine samples for WWII VVS underside blue can be found today. They are (parts of): 2 MiG-3, LaGG-3, U-2, Il-2 and Pe-2. There is also
UTI-4 at Vantaa museum, but I don't know if any original (blue) color can be found any more. All samples except maybe Il-2 and Pe-2 are 1942 or earlier.
Unfortunately according to my friend none of these blues agree with the FS number given by the VVSpage.

During this fall I and my friend (the researcher, I was the helping hand) made a research visit to Vesivehmaa museum which have parts of a MiG-3, s/n 2171, (outer
wing(s), stabilizer etc.) and a LaGG-3 (part of fuselage). The LaGG part is from starboard fuselage between cockpit and fin. It's painted black and green over light
blue and has a one whole red star without any kind of border. MiG-3 parts are dark green uppers and light blue under, closer notes can be found elsewhere. These
parts are in excellent condition and have always been kept indoors.

We cleaned carefully the areas to be examined with moist tissues and then dried them. No sanding was done nor was deemed necessary. Parts were taken outdoors
where we could use good natural light (sun). Light was dispersed because there was thin overcast. In other words lighting conditions were perfect. A neutral grey
card was placed over the area to be compared. The card had two holes (windows). In the other one FS sample was seen and in the other the color (surface) to be
compared. All this is from color comparison schoolbook.

Much to our surprise we found light blue on both the LaGG-3 and the MiG-3 was extremely similar. FS35352 was extremely close match to the blue on LaGG-3
(wooden/fabric surface). The blue on MiG-3 was also very, very close to that, both on wooden and metal surfaces. In fact the blues are so close that they most
probably are same paint.

Averin writes in his article that blue paint AE-14 was introduced for undersides for MiG-1 and MiG-3 after the end of 1940 (Averin 94, p. 24). Averin's article has
also a table where two other underside blues are given, AMT-7 Nitrolak for wooden and fabric surfaces and AMT-28M for metal surfaces. Start of use for both is
given as 1941. So russian records have at least three different paints for aircraft undersides.

Giving only one blue for undersides is oversimplifying if not wrong. AE-14 and AMT-7/AMT28M may be similar colors, but the FS35352 we found *on two
different planes* doesn't agree with FS(2)5466 the VVSpage gives us ("Brilliant Medium Blue, Underside; Standard for all aircraft (1939-1945)" (sic).

Greys
A Jak-9 rudder and fin from 1943 or 1944 in excellent condition are exhibited at Tikkakoski museum. A friend of mine has made FS comparison for it: darker grey
35042, lighter 36118. These match close the results got by Accurate Miniature's associates in Russia. These comparisons were and are totally separate, these
people even didn't know of each other's existence on Earth before! Tom Cleaver's post about the new-manufactured Yak-3U earlier in this thread basically confirms
the other two FS comparisons. It also proves there has been no noticeable ageing on Tikkakoski museum's rudder. So those three agree with each other but do not
agree with the FS identifications the VVSpage gives us. What conclusion should I make? One possibility is that there were
difference between greys used on Lavotshkins and Jaks and the three samples are Jaks, for example.

Greens
Lots of greens was used by VVS be it variations of same paint or different paints. I don't want even try to know them all. For example, we tried comparing FS
samples to the field applied green (over silver) on SB rudder at Vesivehmaa museum. We could have picked any of the greens at lower page 48 of FS595B (34151,
34089, 34127, 34098, 34130), such was the variation.

The early camouflage green AIIZ (4BO) mentioned by Averin has it's own homepage at:
http://www.dol.ru/users/hotdog/4bo.htm (in English) As we can read there this color varied a lot and giving one FS number for it is pointless. Besides, if I have
understood it correctly this paint was delivered to users as components (Averin) and was to be mixed by them.

The MiG-3 at Vesivehmaa uses green FS34130 for upperside camoflage and also as primer for all metal areas. For example interiors of stabilizer and also on
exterior under the light blue FS35352. BTW there is a (repair?) patch of light blue painted over the green upperside of the stabilizer!

Browns
I do not have a lot of material for browns. A friend of mine has given FS30215 as comparison result for the brown on a Il-2 wing. It's a wreck part at Tikkakoski
museum storage room.

Epilogy
I have tried to give source or reference for all the data here. You can go and check yourself if you don't like to trust me. In my opinion giving FS numbers as
accurate matches without any hint of source or sample is equal to guess by Joe Average.

Note! Finnish transliteration has been used.

Cheers for everybody,
Kari Lumppio , Finland

References and sources:
Vesivehmaa museum
More a storage hangar than museum. No restoration is done here. Situated at Vesivehmaa airfield (ICAO code EFLA) near Lahti. Normally open at weekends
between 12-6 pm. FS comparisons mentioned in this posting were done Sep 27th 1998 (MiG-3, LaGG-3 and SB). They also have a Caudron 714 in genuine
WWII French colors among other old
jewels.

Tikkakoski museum
Tikkakoski Finnish Air Force Museum
Situated near Jyvaskyla airport (EFJY). Their homepage:
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/index.html

homepage "Aeroplane crash sites of Lapland"
http://www.sci.fi/~junkers/lentokE.htm

Valtonen 93
Hannu Valtonen, "Lapin lentokoneenhylyt" (Plane Wrecks of Lappland), Keski-Suomen ilmailumuseo, 1993. ISBN 951-95688-3-2, ISSN 0788-1169 see also:
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/books.html#ksimj4
("Books published by Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo")

the VVSpage
The Modeler's Resource Page for Aircraft of the Voyenno-Vozdushne Sily (VVS), 1930-45 : http://www.oz.net/~xopowo/VVS/vvs.htm

Averin 94
Article "Palitra vojny" by A.Averin. In Russian aviation magazine MIG, 1/94, p.20-29.

Vantaa museum
Suomen Ilmailumuseo / Finnish Aviation museum . Their hompage:
http://www.suomenilmailumuseo.fi/e_index.html Situated at Helsinki-Vantaa airport (EFHK) area. (for example R-5 elevator part and UTI-4 in (purported) FinnAF
colors)

Russian aircraft wreck parts in private collections (not mine, I have none).
От Ilya~Buffalo
К Franek Grabowski (13.09.2003 16:12:15)
Дата 13.09.2003 19:30:04

Ре: Зачем же...

Франек,
С момента этих комментариев прошло несколько лет. То, что было опубликовано на сайте у Эрика ТОГДА, существенно изменилось. Книга существенно более реалистична, чем его сайт три года назад и по основным вопросам разногласий больше нет.
С уважением,
Илья
От Franek Grabowski
К Ilya~Buffalo (13.09.2003 19:30:04)
Дата 14.09.2003 03:52:19

Ре: Зачем же...

Илья
Да конечно Ты прав. Я никакий еxперт от советских цветов но мы с другами много дискутировали цветы польской и англической авиацйи во время ВМВ. Друг имел много чёрно-белых снимок из одного скодрона РАФ из южной Францйи, мы многа думались какие цветы они поуживали и сделали много теорей. Но друг нашёл цветныйе снимки и все наши теории ...
Просто, не можна сказать какие цветы на чёрно-белой снимке. Таких к ВВС не много и когда кто сказывает о конкретном цвете, я бы чочел знать почему он думает што етот цвет на снимке.
С уважением
Франек