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От
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Попов А.
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Kovalev
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Дата
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25.06.2002 18:55:00
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Рубрики
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Прочее;
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W. Spate ...
> Da inetersno. Memuari mne vsegda nravilis. Nado bi deistvitelno vsu etu vesch poerevesti. Kak ona polnostiu nazivaetsia?
> Tem ne menee vot vkratze chto mozhno skazat:
> 1. Gering bil ozabochen problemoi registracii sbitich i ne veril nepodtverzhdennim cifram. Eto i drugie istochniki podtverzhdaut. V konce koncov imenno on sozdal tu samuy konservativnuy sistemy podscheta sbitich. "He never believes our victory claims".
> 2. Boi y Wolchova. Ochen interesno. Kak vidite nikto ne potoropilsia zapisivat 9 pobed po 6 sbitich. Sadites i pishite po-otdelnosti a potom - sravnim i svedem o odin. I: "The final report was in line with the total number of losses on the side of the enemy"
> 3. Za 1945 avtor znaet o trech sluchayach kogda bili zapisani lozhnie pobedi. Ny chto zhe 3 - eto ne 300 i ne 3000. Skolko realno bilo poteriano samoletov Krasnoi Armiei v 1945 chto tam Krivosheev pishet?
> 4. Vot i charakternii sluchai.
> "One of these was a well-known man with over 200 recognized kills".
> Voeval razumeetsia v Rossii.
> " He had come up through the NCO ranks and received a commission because of his outstanding achievements."
> Bil NCO - to est' sergeantom grubo govoriya. Zapomnim.
> "he reported that he had shot down three four-engine bombers"
> Znachit delo bilo uzhe na zapadnom fronte? Da pobedi tam dostavalis nelegko.
> "Both the wing commander and I questioned the pilot who in the meantime had been ordered to bed rest because of a concussion".
> Vot bedniaga! So stuknutoi bashkoi i privral. Mozhet on prosto ne ponimal chto delaet? Horosho esche ne raportoval chto cherti za nim leteli.
> "He finally broke down and freely admitted that he had completely made up the three kills".
> Vot tut zhe brechnu i raskololi! Viveli gada na chistuy vodu! A pochemy kololi? Seichas uvidim!
> "Why? He had led the group for many weeks and had not registered any victories."
> I vse na nego smotreli kak na pridurka: "Esli ti as vidavai rezultat!"
> He had fabricated the three victories in an act of desperation.
> Ot otchayaniua to est.
> A samoe interesnoe vot: "The other two cases were strangely enough also former enlisted men".
> Stranno li?
> I dalee:
> "In no way do I want to diminish the achievements of our comrades throughout the enlisted ranks or the non-commissioned officers"
> Poniali pochemy etogo "asa" tak kololi usilenno i na chto avtor namekaet. Na to chto eto vse bili NCO - letchiki iz soldatov i sergantov a ne "commissioned officers" to est ne cariernie oficeri.
> I zdes ochen interesnii moment: protivostoyanie CO i NCO - ochen charakternaya dlia nemeckoi armii vesch (kak i dlia drugich). Pervie - "nastoyaschie" oficeri vtorie - net. Pervie - obrazci vo vsech otnosheniyach a vtorie - vtoroi sort. Vidite kak interesno poluchaetsia. Chotia avtor i izviniaetsia pered nimi potom: "In no way do I want to diminish the achievements of our comrades throughout the enlisted ranks or the non-commissioned officers. On the contrary I discovered that they had more guts and foolhardiness more unselfishness and more camaraderie than I normally experienced with officers in general". No izvinuaetsia tozhe kak-to krivo tipa bili bolee bezrassudnie menee egoistichnimi i luchshimi druziami. Etakie ne zhaleuchie sebia dobrodushnie prostaki iz samoi guschi naroda.
> Vidite dorogoi matveich kak neodnoroden bil oficerskii korpus Luftwaffe i kak ludi tam drug druga grizli i dazhe do sich por scheti v memuarach svodiat. No mi to - ob oberste Rudele kadrovom oficere. Dlia nego pripiska - professionalnaya smert. NCO nabrechal i na dembel posle voini a oficer s "lipoi" kyda poidet? Na taksista tolko pereuchivatsia?
АП: Я с радостью бы с Вами согласился: приятнее о людях (в т.ч. и немецких летчиках) думать только хорошее. Но вот три вопроса. Как быть с некоторыми CO. Известный пример - самый знаменитый Oblt командир одной из самых знаменитых частей JG1 догадываетесь о ком речь? "Goering's 22 claims bear testimony to his prowess as a fighter ace although a few of those are suspect." Fokker DrI aces of WWI p84.
Еще вопрос: а как Вы считаете что ответил бы CO на вопрос NCO об обстоятельствах той или иной победы офицера. Вот например тот же Шпате спросил бы у Геринга сколько же он в действительности сбил?
Ведь речь идет не о чести солдат не о том что офицеры лгали а об оценке их рапортов. Ведь Геринг мог сомневаться и Шпате а всем остальным это запрещено?
С уважением Попов Андрей.
> I kstati nemci nikogda ne govoruat prosto Rudel a - Herr Oberst Rudel. Ili " Herr diplomirovannii inzhener Heinkel". Potomy chto "Noblesse oblige!" ili na chisto franzuzskom yazike "Polozhenie obiazivaet"!
> Tak chto vidite memuarist ne istrik i celi u nego - sovsem drugie. Sm moi fevralskie tezisi "Remeslo istorika" v diskussii.
> K
> > Евгений переведите пожалуйст
> а этот(см. ниже) кусок текста (книга Вольфганга Шпате ас с 99 победами) всяко лучше чем дебилки про Вруделей переводить:
> > The demonstration at Rechlin ended. The Reichs Marshal had already turned to leave when he gave me another scrutinizing look. “I don’t know you!” he said with a pondering expression. He had noticed my Knight’s Cross to the Iron Cross that was hanging around my neck. Normally everyone who was awarded oak leaves to the Knight’s Cross was ordered to report to him for a personal introduction. Someone had forgotten to do it. Goring’s memory was very remarkable. “What did you get this for?” he asked pointing to the medal around my neck. I reported that I had received it in recognition of the 62 kills I had on the eastern front.
> > “And how many do you have now?” he wanted to know further.
> > “81 Herr Reichs Marshal.”
> > “And among us friends?” he continued. He seemed to have an ulterior motive because without waiting for my answer he put his arm on my shoulder in a friendly gesture and walked a few steps with me. He put his hand up to the group of field marshals generals and obersts that were accompanying him as a sign that he wanted them to keep their distance. “I want you to assume that rm your best friend. We're hanging out together in a barracks at a forward air base. We’re sitting around talking honestly in close friendship about our kills. In this setting I want to ask you now—and you have to understand that rm not your supreme commander but your good comrade and wingman—so I ask you: Among friends my good Spate how many kills do you really have? Be completely honest!”
> > Through his theatrical display Fatty had given me plenty of time to think about my answer. It was obvious what he wanted me to say. He was looking for a fighter pilot who would tell him that he had reported a kill that had never happened. But he had asked the wrong pilot because I had at least a dozen additional “unconfirmed” kills. They had not been credited to me either because someone else had been involved in the kill or there was no witness that saw the enemy aircraft crash or I had personally not been able to observe the aircraft when it impacted the ground. “Among friends ” I answered “I’ve got 100. Actually among friends I always count all of them including the ones that my superiors or RLM have not recognized because of a lack of a witness etc.”
> > “Come on Hermann ” General Loerzer said “you’re not going to get anything from him. Let’s go look at something else.”
> > Goring let go of my shoulder and the two of them departed. The other generals surged past me hurriedly. One of them tapped me on the shoulder and muttered to me “Well done Spike! Super! He never believes our victory claims. That was a good answer you gave him!” It was Oberst Traudoft the commander of day fighters under the general of the Fighter Command and my former wing commander.
> > When I look back at this incident after more than 40 years I have to admit that Goring was not without cause when he asked that question. I was certainly upset at the time though because never during my hundreds of operational sorties did lever toy with the thought of reporting anything but the truth about any of my victories. Why should I? I was a reservist. Once the war was over I wanted to go back and continue my studies. At the time I didn’t have one ounce of desire to stay in the active military. Awards and honors which would have an affect on your career and promotion potential just didn’t play a roll as far as I was concerned. I was satisfied with the 81 marks on the tail section of my airplane so 'd have something to tell my children about. And if the war demanded more of me then good I'd have a couple of more marks. But I thought it was absurd to think someone would consciously try to be deceitful.
> > Things actually appeared differently though when you consider that the reports were often submitted within an hour of the air duel. A little wishful thinking on the part of the pilot with the excitement of the battle still fresh in his mind might have influenced his judgment. When the police interrogate the participants of a barroom free-for-all they initially get diametrically opposing statements. During that minute of contact with the enemy in air-to-air combat all the participants are entangled in a fight between life and death. I cannot imagine anyone in that situation who would not be extremely excited. One of my combat flights from Staraja Russia at ilmensee in the area of Wolchow is as clear to me today as the day I flew it. I was leadingaflight of four Me-109s and ran into a group of six Soviet single-winged planes of an unknown type. During the ensuing air baffle we were successful in shooting down all six aircraft. After we landed my three wingmen were beaming with joy and pride. I ordered them to “go to the briefing room and each sit in a separate corner and write a completely independent report of the engagement. Afterwards we’ll combine them into one consolidated battle report.” The three NCOs all experienced pilots with recognized kills of their own did exactly as they had been ordered. Based on the reports they had written it appeared that we had destroyed a total of nine enemy aircraft. It was certain that we had engaged only six airplanes so we had reported three too many kills. We then tried to painstakingly reconstruct the flow of the air battle. The results stayed the same! Each of my wingmen maintained that he had shot down two airplanes apiece. I personally claimed three kills. Not because of any evidence but because of my commander’s authority I decided that I would give up claim to one of my victories and two of my wingmen would also have to do the same. If any of them are still living today rm sure they still believe they shot those airplanes down even though I didn’t recognize them.
> > In our case the final report was in line with the total number of losses on the side of the enemy. Today rm sure that both sides were inaccurate concerning the reports of their kills. I know of three such instances in the last year of the war alone where there was not a grain of truth to the fighter pilot’s victory claims. One of these was a well-known man with over 200 recognized kills. He had come up through the NCO ranks and received a commission because of his outstanding achievements. His last position was as commander of a fighter group. One day his squadron commander reported to the wing commander that the group commander had led a mission during which there had been no contact with the enemy. Ten minutes before landing he had disappeared from the formation and after landing he reported that he had shot down three four-engine bombers. Not a single four-engine aircraft had been reported crashing in the area in question. The whole thing stunk! Both the wing commander and I questioned the pilot who in the meantime had been ordered to bed rest because of a concussion. He finally broke down and freely admitted that he had completely made up the three kills. Why? He had led the group for many weeks and had not registered any victories. He had fabricated the three victories in an act of desperation. “Now I can almost understand ” I couldn’t resist the observation “how your string of victories came about. They were even heralded in official military reports.” We reported our findings to the division commander. He graciously covered up the incident in an act of mercy. Regardless of what we did the war was going to be over soon...
> > The other two cases were strangely enough also former enlisted men who because of demonstrated bravery had been commissioned as officers and had been assigned as unit cornmanders. Moreover I know of someone who reported two kills in the Me-16 3 after the war even though it could be proven that he had not shot them down.
> > In no way do I want to diminish the achievements of our comrades throughout the enlisted ranks or the non-commissioned officers. On the contrary I discovered that they had more guts and foolhardiness more unselfishness and more camaraderie than I normally experienced with officers in general.